conversations in ten questions 59: John Collins & Greig Sargeant (Elevator Repair Service)

In this year's 77th edition of the Festival d'Avignon, our performing arts editor and writer Ayşe Draz, along with our performing arts writer Mehmet Kerem Özel, engaged in conversations with the artists of the performances they watched between July 6th and 10th. The second conversation is with John Collins, the artistic director of the American group Elevator Repair Service, and Greig Sargeant, who plays Baldwin in the play.

© Christophe Raynaud de Lage 

Portuguese theatre figure Tiago Rodrigues, the festival director, states in his introductory essay for the 77th edition of the Festival d'Avignon – one of the world's prominent performing arts festivals –, held from July 5th to 25th, 2023, that "We do not accept a world divided by borders, for we believe that the organization of the world, its pasts and presents, must be based on the freedom of languages with their complex richness." Building on this notion, Rodrigues plans to emphasize a different language each year as a way to "build bridges where some may want to build walls," and for this inaugural edition of his directorship, he selected the English language to gather around the joyful chaos of words, languages, and translation.

In this context, one of the ensembles invited by Rodrigues to the festival was the New York-based Elevator Repair Service (ERS). Presenting their play Baldwin and Buckley at Cambridge, which premiered in 2021, ERS was founded by John Collins in 1991. The play, a project of Greig Sargeant, who is both a member of the ensemble and portrays James Baldwin, is directed by John Collins. Among their most recognized works is the staging of the entire text of The Great Gatsby in Gatz. ERS will premiere their adaptation of James Joyce's Ulysses this September at Fisher Center/Bard College.

For those who have recently watched Meeting the Man: James Baldwin in Paris on Mubi, it becomes evident through this short documentary how pivotal James Baldwin is, not only in the realm of literature but also in the context of civil rights and the struggle of Black individuals in America. Portrayed as both a writer, thinker, and critic, as well as a figure who often graced discussions due to his sharp personality, incisive language, and his identity as a gay individual, Baldwin was born in 1924 in the heart of poverty and racial inequality in Harlem, New York. With his written works, essays, and courageous speeches addressing societal matters, he rapidly began to make a significant impact within the African American movement and the arena of civil rights.

Meanwhile, many of us are acquainted with Baldwin through photographs depicting him with the backdrop of Istanbul – a city he occasionally called home and found himself quite connected to, due to its historical and cultural diversity. Baldwin, known for his books like The Fire Next Time and Go Tell It on the Mountain, examined the coexistence, or rather the lack thereof, of people from different races in America.

In 1965, Baldwin was invited to participate in a debate at the Cambridge Union in the United Kingdom alongside American conservative critic and founder of the National Review magazine, William F. Buckley. At the heart of the debate lay the question, "Is the American Dream at the expense of the American Negro?" This question brought together these two prominent figures with contrasting views on race, civil rights, and America. Representing the conservative viewpoint, Buckley, often recognized for his articulate yet occasionally contentious opinions, argued that the American Dream had not been constructed at the expense of the American Negro and that racial progress should occur through a gradual and controlled process rather than immediate actions. On the other hand, Baldwin, a staunch advocate for racial equality and social justice, contended that the American Dream had been built upon the exploitation and suffering of African Americans, emphasizing that racial inequalities were deeply ingrained in American society, necessitating significant changes to rectify these injustices. The intellectual exchange between these two individuals, representing differing viewpoints, took place within the context of Cambridge University students and centered around the pivotal question of race, civil rights, and equality, making it a crucial historical moment captured for future generations. This debate resonates into the present and even our immediate future, particularly in the context of race, equality, and justice within American society. Inspired by the echoes of this historic debate, ERS's work Baldwin and Buckley at Cambridge underscores the relevance of the 1965 debate by featuring two opposing lecterns and a surrounding audience, highlighting the ongoing significance of this discussion, not only in the black-and-white context but also in today's world of increasing discrimination across various domains. In the midst of the events of racial tensions in France and while police brutality fueled uprisings, ERS revisited the encounter of 1965 on the stage of one of the world's most prestigious theatre festivals, Avignon. In this work, which permits the clash of past and future, Greig Sargeant, portraying James Baldwin, and director John Collins respond to our questions. 

© Ahron Foster

What is the essence of performance in your opinion?

John Collins: If by “performance” you mean live performance, then I would say its essence is its liveness. The fact that it can, and often does, go wrong, unfold in an unplanned or surprising way, creates a unique sense of real possibility and even danger in every moment on stage. This liveness and the unique sensation it creates are amplified by the presence of a live audience — itself an unpredictable force. 

Greig Sargeant: For me, being a performer has always been about having a voice that matches my soul with a point of view that I can stand next to with pride. The essence of performance for me is the courage to live truthfully with conviction within the imaginary circumstances presented to me as an actor. 

Do you believe in the transformative power of art? How? Of course I do. How?

JC: I have experienced it too many times to count so that belief comes very naturally to me. 

GS: I most certainly do. What imagines becomes. Art has power to change lives. It is the reason why I am so happy to bring the Baldwin and Buckley at Cambridge debate to life and to share it with a new generation. When you realize that this debate about Race was almost 60 years ago and still resonates in today’s society, it is impossible not to continue this conversation in the hope of transformative change. 

When you are working on a new piece, what sources inspire you? Do dreams play a role in your works?

JC: Dreams do not really play a role. What inspires me is the transformation of one kind of work into another, of written words into actions and experiences. I am inspired by a concept, speech or movement becoming reborn as live theater even though it may have started its life in a completely different medium. 

GS: I've always looked for the personal connection between me and the role that I am playing. I like to read their histories, watch films and documentaries about the subject matter, I like to visit places that inspire me and my characters. I like to get lost in a museum and look at paintings for hours and imagine my character's life in that painting. When I become fully immersed in my research, it effects my dreams. So yes, dreams do play an important role in my work. I'm constantly surprised how inspiration finds me.

When do you decide to give a title to a piece you are working on if it already does not have one?

JC: I am usually dogged by the need to title my work. Sometimes the titles come very easily and sometimes thinking of a title is a grueling and frustrating process. I always want a piece of theater to have its own unique name — even if it arose from an existing work in another medium. But it can be difficult to rename something if I’ve already become accustomed to speaking of it by a certain name. 

GS: As the actor, I've not been in a position to give title to a piece. The work usually comes to me with the very least a working title. 

Is there any writer, artist or person whom you think influenced your art most? And if there is such a figure, who?

JC: Elizabeth LeCompte, the director of The Wooster Group. I had the privilege of working with and for her for almost 15 years; but even before that, seeing her work opened my mind to a whole new understanding of what made live performance an enduring and worthwhile pursuit. She makes her work with great courage and from her great courage come great performances and exciting ideas that I never could have imagined. 

GS: I'm influenced greatly by directors. Their vision has to match my own and these three titans of the theater have changed my life: David Herskovits - Artistic Director of Target Margin Theater, John Collins - Artistic Director of Elevator Repair Service,  Ivo Van Hove - Director of International Theater Amsterdam Intelligent, courageous, and visionary, they are. God bless them all. 

When you consider the current state of the world in every sense, what is the most important and urgent issue for you as an artist?

JC: I don’t look at the “current state of the world” as an artist, I look at the state of the world as a citizen and as a human being. My perspective as an artist applies exclusively to my work as an artist and I think my work should be shielded, as much as it can be, from political and cultural expectations. As a human being, I see an urgent threat from small-minded and intolerant people who achieve positions of influence and power through cynicism and dishonesty. This is happening at an alarming rate in state and national politics across the US and Europe. 

GS: Man's inhumanity towards man, which touches every aspect of life, is what troubles me the most as a person and an artist. It is my duty as an artist to point out this issue and fight it through my work as an actor and human being. 

What does being part of the Avignon Theatre Festival signify for you?

JC: It feels like an accomplishment to be a part of this festival. It is something I’ve hoped for a long time and it is an honor to take part. 

GS: To bring Baldwin and Buckley at Cambridge to this Festival is a dream come true. As a Black American - I feel privileged to bring the most important, defining, and damaging aspect of American life to France. RACISM. By continuing the conversation about RACE in America, hopefully now in its 400th year, we can finally make real change to combat it. I truly believe in the transformative power of art. 

In the creating process of your piece Baldwin and Buckley at Cambridge what and/or who were you inspired and influenced by?

JC: I was inspired first by my chief collaborator on this piece, Greig Sargeant, and then deeply inspired by James Baldwin and Lorraine Hansberry, whose work as thinkers, writers and activists I came to know through working on this piece. Their words resonate with me every single day. 

GS: Always and forever James Baldwin. He had courage, intellect, talent, toughness, perseverance, and tenacity. He fought for his people, his identity, and America every day of his life. He unburied the history of the Black American, foretold the future, and stood up for his convictions until the day he died. How fortunate for us that his work lives on. He is America's finest example of a Hero. I continue to learn so much from him. 

Do you label Baldwin and Buckley at Cambridge as an example of documentary theatre? And how much do you let fiction to infiltrate the real?

JC: I don’t have a label for it. I’ll leave that to others. The fact that these words were actually said in 1965 has real meaning for me, but the reason for our doing this — and what I feel is most important — is that these words are spoken TODAY and heard TODAY by the very real people in our audiences. We deliberately confuse what is real today and what is recreated from what was real in 1965. The most important aspect of the show is its liveness and the way people feel TODAY hearing these words. 

GS: I do not label it documentary theatre. If I had to label it in some way, I would call it a Sermon. This is not a sit back and enjoy the show informative piece. The audience in this production is the biggest participant of the piece. We are challenging you. We are recreating this piece for a modern audience because the text is still unfortunately, 100 % relevant today. This is not a piece of fiction. It is 100% real. Every aspect of it. There is no infiltration. Fiction took the last train out of town 400 years ago. 

What’s your favourite line (or moment) in this piece, and why?

JC: I have two favorite lines: Baldwin: “I picked the cotton and I carried it to market, and I built the railroad under someone else’s whip — for nothing.” This is Baldwin summing up in just a few words what is wrong with America and the fallacy of “The American Dream” insofar as it suggests everyone has an equal chance to succeed here. Hansberry: “We have to find some way with these dialogues to show and to encourage the white liberal to stop being a liberal and become an American radical.” It’s the last line of the show and it feels like such a meaningful challenge to someone like me. I often find myself trying to think of ways, even small ways, to answer this challenge.

GS: "I picked the cotton, and I carried it to market, and I built the railroads under someone else's whip for nothing.” This one line epitomizes everything you need to know about the identity of Blacks in America and why we continue to fight for our equality and respect.

[The Turkish version of this interview was published in unlimited.]